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Upsilon · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject:

"I am Yoshgunn, hear me nitpick!" Razz

God (or, at least, a god) wouldn't have to be omniscient in order to exist - it's not out of the question that he could create something without knowing everything about it. I'm not even convinced that he'd have to be omnipotent, either: my parents created me but that doesn't mean they have complete control over my actions (I realise it's not quite the same thing but it's the closest analogy I can come up with on the spot).

I won't argue with you on the physics thing, because it's a futile discussion really, but are you saying there's a scientific explanation for Jesus' miracles? 'Cause, you know, if there is, it kind of defeats the point of them being miracles.
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Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject:

Yoshgunn · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject:

Well, see the point I was trying to make is that God would have to be those things to exist in the first place because we are here right now.

I'll use your analogy: your parents created you. Thus, you relied on them for existence. Who created them? Their parents. This goes on for sometime, as all humans obviously came from their parents.

Now with God, the question is, who created God? And who created that creator? And who created THAT one? The only way to break the infinite regression backwards is to come to the conclusion that somewhere along the line there was something that DID NOT have to rely on ANYTHING for existence. Gawd.

In order to rely on nothing he'd HAVE to be omnieverywhatever otherwise how could he exist in the first place.

Anyway, I always hear people asking for proofs that God exists, but I never heard a good solid arguement that he DIDN'T. Anyone wanna fill me in there?
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Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject:

Yoshgunn · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject:

While it's great to know you base your beliefs off of human perception (limited and biased) and what you claim isn't even absolute truth (wow), I guess I ought to address the ever trivial question that lurks in the back of people's minds.

"Could God create a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it"

Retarted, trivial... but the logic of the question is hidden beneath it in the whole "could the Almighty do something more almighty than He, all that".

So, could God create an entity more powerful than himself? Well geez, that's obvious, no. Izzhov, can you count higher than infinity? No. So, can God create something better than Himself? Not really, there's nothing better than Himself, so what would he make?
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I FORGOT HOW I WAS GONNA END THIS??!

"Good Lord, child get it right - I did not "show you my ass", I mooned you. There is a very important legal difference." - Chzrm3

Damian · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject:

The argument I think he's trying to counter, though, is that you're saying God could create anything. But you just said he couldn't.

Amirite? I could be more detailed but yeah.
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Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject:

Blank · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject:

Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject:

Blank · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject:

I was just making sure you realized the impact of saying you believe in nothing! It's a very, very dramatic, serious statement.
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Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject:

dPaladin · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject:

Yoshgunn · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject:

Why shouldn't evil exist just because God exists? That doesn't really seem logical to me at all. So just because God can save you, you think He should? God isn't some servant or a magical vending machine that vends wonderful solutions to your problems for you just because you asked for it.

Besides, if humans don't like evil so much we should stop doing it. Now don't let me give the impression I'm trying to say I'm perfect, or I've never sinned, or I'm not evil. I'm just saying that if nothing God made was evil, yet there is evil in the world, whose fault is that? Humanity.

I still stand firm on the belief that because we are here right now today, God cannot be any less than omnipotent and omniscient.
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IM THE DUDE PLAYIN THE DUDE DISGUISED AS ANOTHER DUDE

I FORGOT HOW I WAS GONNA END THIS??!

"Good Lord, child get it right - I did not "show you my ass", I mooned you. There is a very important legal difference." - Chzrm3

Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:08 pm Post subject:

Yoshgunn · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject:

Izzhov · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject:

dPaladin · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:

Xenofan 29A · Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject:

JK9000 · Warnings: 1 Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 1320

Yoshgunn · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:53 am Post subject:

OK I'm gonna try NOT to ignore thing this time, lol.

Izzhov: God eliminating sin means he eliminates free will. No free will would suck. I would say eliminating free will would be the cruelest act ever in the history of the universe, far from a benevolent act of God.

dPaladin: God created humans with free will so that we could do one of two things. Evil, or good. So yes, I guess he did create the possibility of evil for the purpose that humans have a choice of whether or not to love God. If humans had no free will, only the option to love God, then they aren't really loving God at all! With the option to sin, the choice to not sin is that much more important. And thus, I present to you, the answer to this thread: "What is the meaning of life?" (AKA the meaning of free will) Is to know, love, and serve God.
So the question dPaladin now is why do you feel, personally, that freedom is an illusion? Just because God knows what you'll do does not mean YOU know what you'll do or the consequences of said actions. As far as you're concerned you very much do have free willl.
You ask why I believe God's omnipotence and omniscience due to the fact that we are here today... I probably should have gone into that, but I had to go to Midnight Christmas Mass at the moment. The explanation is that since we exist that means we were created by something. The creation of the universe was triggered by an unmoved mover who relied on nothing to act on something, who we know as God. One could not achieve this "existence without dependence" without omnipotence or omniscience.

As for JK I believe I agree with you a great deal.
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IM THE DUDE PLAYIN THE DUDE DISGUISED AS ANOTHER DUDE

I FORGOT HOW I WAS GONNA END THIS??!

"Good Lord, child get it right - I did not "show you my ass", I mooned you. There is a very important legal difference." - Chzrm3

dPaladin · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:23 am Post subject:

Whew. Okay, here we go. Forgive me for not quoting enough.

I've already mentioned (I think) that an omniscient creator would already know the past, present, and future. That's what omniscience IS. You know everything about everything. So God could, ideally, create a universe where mankind is not evil. Right now, some people do evil things, but all their actions are part of a causal chain. God created everything so it would happen a specific way. Just as he intended for Jesus to die on the cross, he intended that you would be Christian, I would be atheist, Hitler would kill six million Jews, etc. If he wanted it to happen differently, he would have done things differently from the outset. This makes him the author of everyone's actions, meaning that from the beginning, he chose who he would "save" and who he wouldn't.

God doesn't give people the option to love him, unless you believe that everyone goes to heaven. Widespread belief is that you either worship God (hand over your soul) or he decides to let you be tortured for eternity. That's called extortion. There is only a true choice if the consequences are equal (not necessarily the same, but equal) for either action.

The creation of the universe doesn't really prove God's omniscience. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I get how it shows his omnipotence.
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chzrm3 · Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:01 am Post subject: = O